558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

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agusta74
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558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby agusta74 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:19 pm

Hiya guys,

I am looking at buying back one of my Saturnos and fitting the 588 Nordwest engine I have spare...

I know I will have to cut and weld the frame to get the carbs to clear the frame but what else needs to be change while doing this conversion?

I have both 350 Saturno and 588 Nordwest header pipes... are they different? Will the 558 headers fit a Saturno and line up with the muffler?
What else will I have to change to get the engine in and working???

Regards
Gavin

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Joachim
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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby Joachim » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:48 am

usually this is done by using a Nordie engine with Saturno head.
So no welding at the frame, which is not road legal here around.
Of course the Saturno head should get wider channels and big valves.

First problem with your idea is the rev counter ;)
The Nordie cam could be modified with a Saturno driving gear, but there is no 'hole' for fitting the cable to the counter.
Of course it may be possible to get this made. On the other hand it is easier to use something electonical.
But then you will loose the beautifull Saturno rev counter ;)
So maybe something with a electronical stepper motor in the mechanical Saturno case....

Beside this you will take care about the ignition boxes.
Depends on what Nordie engine version you have. So maybe you will have to modify the harnes.
Good luck ;)

ciao Joachim
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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby Dietmar » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:59 pm

Antworte in Deutsch, english lesen ok., write not ok.

Bei dem Totalumbau passt der Rahmen (Frame) nicht . Der Vergaser passt nicht.
Also entweder "Eigenbau" Ansaugstutzen für den Singlevergaser der Sat. oder der Rahmenumbau mit Schweissarbeiten ,
auf einen Doppelvergaser.

Die Drehzahlmesser Lösung ließe sich z.B. aus einem XRT oder RC 600 "Altmotor" inplementieren.
Die hatten auch mechanische Drehzahlmesser .
Die Nockenwellen haben den Ansatz. Die Durchführung dürfte das kleinere Prob sein.

Ob sich die Auspuffrohre bzw. Muffler vom 350 zum 500 unterscheiden , weiss ich nicht .
Aber wenn sollte der grössere Querschnitt montiert werden.

Klar dann ist da noch die Anpassung der Zündung auf den Kabelbaum bzw. an das Zündsystem des neuen Motors notwendig.

Aber es geht.

ich vermute mal H.P. sagt auch noch was dazu.

Liebe Grüsse Dietmar
Die Strecke ist der Weg und ist dieser auch noch so verworren, sollte Er wenigstens kurvenreich sein !

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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby agusta74 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:36 pm

Great info thanks!
I didn't know about the tacho being different.

Can I take the cams from my 350 and fit them in the Nordwest head?
That would give me a cam with the tacho drive on the end...

Are any or all of the cams interchangeable between models?

How hard is it to find a 500 Saturno head??? Anyone have one for sale?

Regards
Gavin

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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby Joachim » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:24 pm

agusta74 wrote:Can I take the cams from my 350 and fit them in the Nordwest head?


They will fit, but i think it will not be a good idea.
Just compare the timing.
Using the 350 head also makes no sense.
Everything is to small for the bigger displacement

That would give me a cam with the tacho drive on the end...


The drive gear at the end of the cam can be removed.
That's the minor problem.
The big one will be to make the hole in the head cover to allow the rest of the gear to be mounted.

How hard is it to find a 500 Saturno head???


Good luck
If you will find 2 of them, please drop me a note at once giggle

ciao Joachim
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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby agusta74 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:03 am

Can I take the drive gear off the 350 engine's cam and fit it to the nordwest cam???
How hard is that??

Drilling the hole for the drive would be easy for me as I have a workshop with milling machine etc.

Thanks guys.

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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby CB » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:05 pm

Hi Gavin
Yes, you can take the drive gear from the 350 cam and mount it on the 558 cam and then modify the 558 head and top part to accept the bush and the other drive part. I think the drive gear is pressed or Loctited to the cam peg. This is the best solution. Be careful not to mix rocker arms from the 350 with the 558 as they differ in geometry.

If you have access to a machine shop you can make a one into two intake manifold and either either have it welded to the head or bolt it to the head so you don't have to modify the frame. I have seen this done by others. As told by others you can also find a 500 head. Then you can use the 40mm or 41 mm single carburettor. The Keihin FCR 41 works great and is very progressive and responsive but the Dellorto is also fine.

It is possible to use the 350 flywheel after you have turned up the cone diameter combined with the 350 sidecover and the 350 ignition system. Thats what I did in the start. But, - it is much better to use the standard 558 flywheel with all the electronics that belongs to that and modify your wiring harness accordingly.

So, just go for it, I don't think you will be dissapointed :D
Christian

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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby agusta74 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:56 am

Mods to the head to get the tacho to work all sound doable! Thanks for the advice.
I have a complete Nordwest engine with ignition bits so I will swap the whole thing.

I will make a one into two manifold and use a 40mm carb of a 500 Saturno that I have coming.

I have ordered some Wilbers springs for the forks and now I am looking at which make and type of rear shock to buy.
What do people say about the options??

Will 350 Saturno header pipes work on the Nordwest 558 engine or will have have to use Nordwest header pipes?
I have a set if I need them.

Can someone tell me what oil filter to get?

Does anyone know how many Saturnos were built???

Regards
Gavin

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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby Joachim » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:14 pm

In the Yahoo group there is a alternative parts list.

Oelfilter Knecht OC11, Mann W77, Fram PH2874, Fiamm FT4763, Purolator FC603, Champion C116 usw...

ciao Joachim
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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby CB » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:36 pm

You can use the 350 header, - I think it is the same as the 500 header and it havee the same pipe dimension as the 558 header as far as I remember.
I even use a 350 header on my 604cc although it is a bit small.
Regards
Christian

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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby agusta74 » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:48 am

Well I did buy my old Black with white wheels 350 Saturno back.
Then I loaded it in my van and took it to my fathers workshop (350kms away, were the good tools live!) and spent a long weekend working on the bike as it had not run in the 10 years since I sold it....
New oil, filter, belt, fork seals and fork oil, sorting out brakes and indicators and fitting a new battery... etc etc etc...

Had a couple of unexpected things happen. When I took off the radiator the plastic part of the fan the "blade" that spins FELL OUT! The nut that held it on was long gone and the shaft where the thread should be was polished from spinning inside the stationary fan!! I hadn't expected that. Lucky I had also take my red 350 Saturno Superleggera project bike down also so I "borrowed" the fan off that bike.

Then when I was cleaning the gas tank that had been dry I found that the bottom had rusted and their were rust holes in the bottom both sides around the tap. BUGGER! Cleaned it all up (so much for the original paint work) and soldered up the holes with silver solder then used POR15 gas tank cleaner and sealer. Which I hope will work and seal the tank.

I have decided to keep the Black 350 mostly original, BUT I have fitted small LED indicators as one of the orignals had broken, and I will leave the KN pod filter on and repaint it black with gold wheels and gold decals. Not 100% like an anniversary model but close to that look. I think I will take off the non original mirrors and fit one bar end mirror. Otherwise it will stay standard. I have a new set of Michelin tyres to go on once I paint the wheels gold.

I think I will fit my 558 engine to the red bike (which will be yellow) instead of the black bike.
I have bought an original 40mm carb from a 500 to use and I will make a Y manifold for it.
I also have gold wire wheels for the yellow bike.

Then I will have one black and gold mostly original 350 and the Superleggera yellow 558 as the project fast toy!

Great fun to be had!

The black bike is still yet to run and I am giving the tank sealer lots of time to harden up.

Regards
Gavin

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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby Joachim » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:00 am

*thumb*

keep us informed and send pics ;)

ciao Joachim
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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby agusta74 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:06 am

I just bought the cylinder head from a 500 Saturno! :) :)
It will go on the 558 engine to go in the 350 Saturno chassis.

What mods are needed for that conversion?
Do the water ways line up or do they need "porting" to get them to line up?
Can I use the standard 500 valves or should I make the valves bigger?
Will the 500 head work with the 558 barrel and piston with regard to piston the head clearances??

Regards
Gavin

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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby Joachim » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:27 pm

agusta74 wrote:Do the water ways line up or do they need "porting" to get them to line up?


The problem is the head gasket.
The water ways are a little different and you have to make 2 new holes into the gasket to make the ways fit each other
I have posted some pics years ago, but it looks like the pics have got lost meanwhile :(
I will se if i find them here at my HD.

Can I use the standard 500 valves or should I make the valves bigger?


Having all the bits apart it might be good to use bigger valves and seats (lead free).
Also the Nordie cam shafts would be fine.
You will need to mount the rev counter gear from the exhaust cam of your 350ccm engine.

If you can read german it may be another good idea to search here around for 'Neues aus Garagien' and 'Saturno Tuning' from Gilera guru HP

ciao Joachim
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agusta74
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Re: 558 Nordwest engine into 350 Saturno

Postby agusta74 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:09 pm

Thanks!

Are the cams from the 500 Saturno the same profile as the Nordwest??
Regards
Gavin


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